Danielle Krage:

Today I have Sherice Griffiths with me, a comedy writer and director, who won the BAFTA Rockliff New Writing Competition for her TV pilot The Big 3.0. And she also currently has a short comedy film that’s touring festivals, a mockumentary called Killing for a Living, which has a fabulous cast of assassins. So Sherise, I would love to start there and ask you why mockumentary and why assassins?

Sherice:

Great question. So I guess, well, it started off as a lockdown project, just a bit fun really, so I kind of went into a different world and came up with this idea that, you know, being stuck in a house together is pretty rubbish, but what would that look like if you were kind of all assassins in one place, kind of having to sort of live together and work together. So that’s kind of where the idea came from really.

Yeah, why mockumentary? I guess for me, I’ve always loved mockumentary as a genre. I love things like What We Do in the Shadows and The Office. It was kind of like my homage to those TV shows really. It’s also quite an achievable genre, I felt. One on a sort of a low-budget scale. So yeah, we did it quite cheaply. And yeah, it was just a lot of fun really.

Danielle:

Amazing. I think the fun really comes through. I had a lot of fun watching it. I wanted to dig into the tone a little bit more because you make it look so easy. You really nailed like a really funny mockumentary tone that completely captivated my attention and had a great arc within 10 minutes but I think that’s harder to do than it looks. So, I’d love to know a little bit but first of all about your process when you were scripting, and then I will ask you more about the direction stage. But when you were scripting what do you think helped really nail that tone, nail those characters, nail that world.

Sherice:

So I guess with the script it started off as a pilot, so for a longer episode, and there was a sort of more of a plot driven narrative to the mockumentary. And from there I kind of thought, okay, so this is what would be in sort of like the TV, you know, equivalence, but then I kind of thought, what can I actually make on a sort of low budget scale, and kind of converted that into a short. So actually sort of fleshing it out into a sort of more of a series document. So there was a treatment, a pitch deck, and also the script for the sort of 30 minute version. That helped me kind of get into the heads of these characters and kind of figure out how they would react in different scenarios and I think that really helped when I sort of had to dilute that down even further into a short film because I knew these characters so well by this point that I was able to kind of go, oh yes I know this character will react to this in this way, this stimulus will get them to react in this way and that will create this great moment of comedy. So I guess it was just something I sat with for such a long time that these characters just really became part of me in that way.

Danielle:

That totally makes sense and I love that as a proposition, kind of writing way more than you need to to reduce it down because all those things definitely feed into it. They really came to life in such a brilliant way that we don’t always get in sketch comedy. Sketch comedy can be so fun and sometimes it is just about the play of the idea, but yours was very much an established world with a really clear cast of characters. I love that.

And how did you think about developing the conflict within that household? Because I thought it worked so well and added so much to the comedy.

Sherice:

Yeah, so I guess one thing I really like to do with comedy is think of who would be the worst possible person to go through this situation. And that’s kind of how I started off with coming up with the characters. So there’s like an intern who’s kind of like, who doesn’t really understand the world, but he’s kind of helping do the cleaning and do all this sort of stuff for the assassins. And he’s very much like a dogsbody in this. But actually what’s quite fun about his character is that he’s so naive, that he’s not really, you know, aware of the situation. And having someone like that who’s working with these ultra contract killers just created this really nice juxtaposition, kept it quite light and friendly rather than it being sort of like oh everyone’s there but they’re gonna kill everyone. It’s you know a bit more fun and more uplifting I guess so yeah we’re kind of playing with that and looking at the different conflicts between different characters. Obviously I’ve got characters who perhaps have a similar sort of nature about them, they’re perhaps you know quite hierarchical in that respect you know. You’ve got people trying to sort of fight for the alpha positions and what that kind of does is it puts them against each other into these great scenarios where they’re constantly trying to, you know, play the status game between each other. And yeah, you get great conflict out of that and that creates some great comedy moments.

Danielle:

Oh, it totally does. Yeah, the status game is so fun. And I absolutely loved the intern character. I thought it was just added such a lovely kind of light, delightful element, even though we’re in a house of assassins. It’s perfect. I’d love to ask you about the visuals. So you’re both the writer and the director. There were so many visuals that I thought really brought the world to life in such a smart way and so fast…you’ve got less than 10 minutes, but you did so much with it to make us believe it’s in house and they’d lived there and to really contribute to the overall sense. So I’d love to know how you thought about that, how much actually was in the script and how much was you with a director’s eye being able to pull that out on the day?

Sherice:

Yeah, I mean a lot of it was in the script I guess in my head. Some of it was taken out from the longer version of the script like I talked about with the pilot. So some of that just sort of stayed with me and I was like, oh it really needs to look like this because in my head is how it should look but it wasn’t actually written on the page. I worked with a really great art director and a great cinematographer who can just help elevate everything that I can see in my mind. And it’s all about creating a small little detail. So because it was quite a fast shoot, we shot in a single day. So it wasn’t huge amounts of time to prep the house location. It was very much working one room at a time and dressing it so it would fit the scene we needed. So we looked at the small details and what we would see in frame. In the kitchen, we actually put a little shopping list on the fridge which you don’t really see that close but you can kind of just see it but it’s got things like bread, cheese, bullets, body bags, things like that so it’s like those little nuances of what you’d actually be like to be in a house with these guys.

Danielle:

Yeah, that was perfect. I loved the fridge. I was leaning in and I watched it multiple times so I could take it all in. That was great. And I also loved the whole motif of the fish tank that you brought in. It was so good, so fun and how that interlinked with the characters.

Sherice:

I was just going to say, just picking up on the fish tank, that was something that I knew was in the location. So I actually wrote that into the script. After seeing the location, I was like, and we actually created a couple of scenes around that just because it was there. So I was like, right, I have to use this. We’ve got a character who loves animals. This is perfect.

Danielle:

Yeah, it was perfect. And I’d love to know with regards to the actors and hitting that tone, mockumentary, where we can believe that they’re assassins, but they also get to play like in quite a big colourful play box of crayons in terms of developing those characters. What did you do to help ground the characters so we could believe them? But also to let the actors have that really fun time.

Sherice:

Yeah, I mean in terms of grounding the characters, they’re quite eccentric characters I have to say so you know they’ve got very big personalities and you know I think in terms of relatability there’s not a huge amount of relatability but I think it’s more that you will empathize with these guys because you can kind of see that they’re getting stressed out about things that you know you or I would get stressed out about… you know people moving our stuff and you know having to clean up constantly after someone… it’s you know those everyday things that you know kind of makes it more grounded. It’s winding in those little moments that people go, oh yes, that’s just like me and people I live with, housemates always taking my stuff, it’s such a pain. Whether that’s soap or a gun, you know? That sort of thing.

Danielle:

I love that. I thought you did it really expertly. I loved the domestic and the escalation, fantastic. And the last question I want to ask about the structure of it is how you thought pacing or managed pacing… and I don’t know how much of that was in the edit to make it such an engaging 10 minutes, and also to give us a satisfying arc because I think that’s really hard to do in under 10 minutes but you really achieved it.

Sherice:

Well thank you. Yeah, I mean it’s tricky there’s no two ways about it. The script I think was about 12 pages so we did cut out a few scenes, we cut out a few little bits, but most of it actually we kept which I’m quite happy about. But in terms of pacing, it was very much kind of looking at it as individual scenes and kind of going, is this working, is this funny? And kind of giving it enough breathing room and not trying to rush through it, but also not trying to, you know, linger too long at certain points. So there’s a few moments where I’m like, is this lingering too much? And then it’s kind of like, you have to kind of remember in mockumentary, some of those lingering moments are actually the funniest moments. So it was kind of like, it’s kind of fighting with your editing brain, I guess, to kind of go, oh, should we hold on this? Or should we just cut? Trying to work out what’s going to get the laugh I guess.

But yeah pacing’s a massive thing, and you can’t really see that in the script until you bring it into the edit really because again, mockumentary is such a nuanced genre in that when you come to look at it, it is kind of like playing with different time, how long things take, creating that juxtaposition between different scenes.

Danielle:

Amazing. And what do you think is some of the nuance of mockumentary that sometimes people miss? Because I think sometimes people can think of it as quite a broad brush strokes genre, but actually as you said there’s so much nuance in it to make it read, to make it work.

Sherice:

Yeah, I mean I’ve seen a lot of mockumentaries that work and I’ve seen a lot that don’t work and I think the ones that do work will usually have some great characters but it’s also the style of shooting, it’s having the camera a little bit more, I guess, involved in the storytelling than perhaps in a straight comedy. Obviously with our version of the documentary that we did, the camera was literally another character in the film basically. And that person was an actor in itself. So you kind of have to think, okay, what would the camera person be doing if they were filming this like a documentary? So it is really getting into that documentary mindset and kind of going, right, we’ve gone into this location, how would someone film this if it was literally on the fly and trying to kind of, you know, capture everything as it’s happening? So there’s a lot of big pans, you’re sort of moving around, you don’t necessarily always know where the action is going to be. And that’s kind of one of the things I wanted to kind of really focus on in the way that we’ve shot this is that, you know, we don’t necessarily know where the action is going to be. And the characters are going to be… so there’s a moment where we’re filming a fish tank and then we hear something in another room and then we cut to what’s happening and go to the door. It’s kind of like not knowing where your character is going to be all the time but not kind of making it too off the wall. Not too obvious that you’re doing that I guess.

Danielle:

That’s really fun. I love thinking of the camera as an extra character. I’ve never thought of it that way. Now you say it it just makes so much sense. Of course, that’s brilliant. I love that.

So I’d love to ask how when you’re writing, before you get onto the set and before you’re there with your director’s eye and your performers, how do you calibrate for yourself, whether something is funny, whether it’s working or not? And how do you test that for yourself or potentially then go to get feedback. What does that look like for you for different projects?

Sherice:

Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. That’s the thing. A lot of the time you write in isolation, so you’re kind of trying to make yourself laugh. And, you know, sometimes you’ll be like, yes, this is hilarious. And you’ll say the joke to someone else and they’ll be like, I don’t get it. So, you know, you’re constantly kind of having to kind of bounce ideas off other people. I’m lucky I’ve got some really trusted people who I can kind of just show my stuff to and get great feedback on stuff, for if it’s working or if it’s not working. And then sometimes, you know, you’ll think something’s working and then you’ll get to the actual day of production, and it just won’t quite feel right. And I think that’s when you have to really trust your gut and kind of go, okay, this isn’t working. So let’s try something else and see what we can do to kind of bring that humour back into it.

I was quite lucky with Killing for a Living. We had great actors who were really happy to improvise. So, we had a few moments where we were like, can we make this funnier? And just kind of let the actors have a bit of free reign. And there’s a moment where Ruth is kind of eating an apple and that was all in the script and she meant to be eating this apple, but then there’s a thing where it was completely improvised, she actually like stabs the apple and we had a few takes like that and then she ended up stabbing the kitchen counter accidentally and you know you just kind of get to a point where you’re kind of like okay it’s probably going a little bit too far, now she’s going to start you know doing too much but it’s kind of knowing when to kind of play and when to kind of you know change up your ideas and I think you know being adaptable as a director is a massively important skill just because you don’t always know if it’s going to work and when it comes to it you have to trust that thing you’ve got and if you’re not finding it funny, who’s going to find it funny. So you have to… if you’re laughing on set, I’d say that’s a really good sign. Cause if everyone else is, you know, enjoying themselves around you, you’re kind of like, right, yes, this is working, so trust that.

Danielle:

I so admire that you managed to keep that attitude when it’s a 24-hour shoot. I mean, I know you didn’t shoot for exactly 24 hours, but within 24 hours…. that you did it in a day, that’s amazing that you can still bring that play. I see why it’s so necessary, but I can also see how there could be a lot of stresses in that kind of situation to be the one who’s having to make the decisions and pull it together. But I love that.

And I know you’ve got quite a lot of production experience more generally, as well as being a writer and director. What do you think from that has helped you really strengthen your craft or your attitude towards making the work? What are some lessons that you’ve learned that are helpful, do you think?

Sherice:

Yeah, so like you say, I’ve done quite a lot of different things in production. So I’ve spent some time as a first AD. I’ve worked as an editor and I’ve worn a lot of hats, basically. I also direct commercials and music videos, things like that as well. And I would say all of it kind of just helps you as you’re kind of building up your tools to be thinking ahead, you’ll always kind of have different things in your mind. So just from having experience working as a first assistant director, I’m very conscious of time. So when I look at a script, I’m like, right, can we do this in a day? People were telling me it was ambitious, but I was like, you know what, I think we can actually manage this in a day because actually the way we’re shooting, we can kind of, you know, use our time effectively. We’re quite quick, obviously, with a mockumentary style, we can be quick. So it was pretty ambitious doing 12 pages in a day, but because I had that prior experience, I could kind of go, I’m going to make it in the day. And again, you know, even by directing like commercials, you don’t have huge heaps of time to do things as much as some people might think you do. A lot of the time is a day or two days just to kind of get the stuff you need. So you’re working constantly. You’re always behind basically. So you have to kind of always know you’ve got to always be slightly behind and just try to kind of find those moments to claw back where you can. And again, it comes back to being adaptable as a director going, right, what can we lose? What can we keep? What’s the central to the scene to tell the story? And you know, you end up losing little bits, but then sometimes you’ll gain extra bits. You’re kind of like, oh, let’s just grab that now. You can kind of be looking for those moments and those things that you can do to sort of, you know, build up your arsenal of things. But yeah, I think that kind of answers the question.

Danielle:

It does. Thank you. And with Killing for a Living, it’s currently at lots of amazing comedy festivals you’ve submitted it to and its being shown. Having been through that process, is there anything that you’ve learned through doing it or that you think would be useful for people to know, if you were winding back in time and starting at the beginning of that again? What would be useful to know?

Sherice:

Yeah, so I mean with film festivals, I made a short a few years ago and I was like …I’m going to send it to Cannes, I’m going to send it to Sundance, and it wasn’t brilliant, it wasn’t the best short ever, but I still, you know, I still submitted it and I did all this stuff and it got into a few smaller festivals and I was like okay, so actually it’s kind of knowing whether or not you want to kind of go for the Sundance or go for Cannes. And sometimes it’s best to kind of go, okay, maybe, you know, this is, I like this film, but maybe it’s not quite right for that festival. For Killing for a Living, we didn’t go down the sort of the top tier festivals, we went very much strategically for comedy film festivals. So we looked at a lot of UK festivals because I’m based in the UK, but we also looked at a lot of specialist festivals, for example over in Toronto….the film played I think it was a couple of weeks ago now. We got a great reception, I had people on Twitter messaging me going… you know I just saw your film here and it was great… and it felt amazing, and I didn’t get to go to the festival directly but just knowing it had a presence there and there was people who were actually messaging me off the back of it was you know a great feeling. So I would say always be strategic with what festivals you’re going for. It can be really expensive so if you’re picking the ones that you really want to go to to or the ones you think your film would fit into I think you’ll… you know, you get more of a fighting chance with kind of getting it seen, getting it out there. And also kind of looking at the festivals, going what films have screened here in the past and kind of seeing if your film kind of matches their themes of the year and the genres that they kind of support and really push. So I think having that sort of insight into the festivals before you submit will ultimately save you money and hopefully help you, you know, get it out there. But yeah, I mean, it’s a long process and you spend a lot of time waiting and constantly checking your emails going, has it got in? Has it got in? So you have to be very patient. But yeah, I mean so far it’s been a really great experience just seeing it, you know, getting into different festivals and I really hope that it continues to get into some more.

Danielle:

Well congratulations on managing all that. I’m rooting for it because it really deserves to do well.

I would love to jump from there to your TV pilot, and as I said, you won the BAFTA Rockliff New Writing Competition Award for the Big Three O. Could you tell us a little bit about that pilot, what genre it is, what your process was like, whether it was different or not to your short film?

Sherice:

Yeah absolutely. This script was what some people might call a fuck-it script, which was very much, I didn’t start with a plan, I started with an idea for a scene really, so it was very much just my subconscious brain just kind of riffing with this idea. I was actually writing something else at the time and I was kind of getting bogged down with it and it was very much like following a blueprint. I kind of wrote the outline, I wrote the treatment and I was just kind of going, OK, so this needs to happen here, why is this not working? So I sort of side-lined it for a bit and I was like, I’m just going to write something, just to see what happens. So that’s kind of what I did. I wrote the scene and I was like, okay, this is quite fun. Let’s make it more extreme. I just put everything into it, to make it really out there, really extreme and kind of built it out from this one moment and kind of just built it out until it became a pilot. And then I was like, okay, it probably needs a little bit more of restructuring and, you know, a bit more focus on where it’s going if it was to be a series. So from that first draft I did kind of restructure it, rebuild it and then yeah it became a pilot basically and I was like okay this is quite fun actually I quite like it now.

Yeah, then I submitted it to BAFTA Rockcliffe and it one, which was amazing. The script’s called The Big Three O and it’s actually about sort of mental health and the LGBT plus community, a couple of themes that I’m quite interested in exploring. Obviously I’m a comedy person so it’s actually quite a fun script there’s a lot of comedy So it was just a really fun thing to write. It was very different obviously from a documentary about assassins and yeah at the time it just felt like a fun project to really sink my teeth into really.

Danielle:

Wonderful, it does sound so fun. And did you get any feedback from the judges about what it was that they were responding to in your work? Because they must have had so many entries or did you not hear? Did they not tell you?

Sherice:

Yeah, so part of the BAFTA Rockcliffe, how it works is basically it gets sent to a judge panel basically and then they pick out three scripts, I think. So we got to that stage and then we got written feedback and we got sort of like verbal feedback as well. You do this big showcase They do an extract of 10 pages of your work, so they then get industry professionals to read it. It was a lot of fun, it was done virtually this year, but yeah, it was awesome just to hear actors actually bringing the words to life. I highly recommend doing that for any writers out there who haven’t had their work brought to life, 100%. Find some actors, make them read it. It’s great fun.

But yeah, in terms of feedback, it was very much the characters that they really responded to. So the main character is called Shaina and she is very extreme. She’s got borderline personality disorder and she is, yeah, she’s very brash but she knows what she wants in life and yeah, that makes her quite an interesting character because she’s very volatile but at the heart of it, she’s, you know, quite a sensitive person and I think having those, you know, internal conflicts and, you know, she’s not the most likable character but she’s very, you can really empathise with her and her situation in the story.

Danielle:

Amazing. And from everything that I’ve seen about your work, characters are such a strong point with you. Do you have any particular methods that you like for how you collect characters… whether it’s basing things on elements of yourself or watching other people or things that you think, oh, that’s not very good, I would do this with it. Or does it come when you’re on the page? What’s that process like for you for creating these kinds of characters that you say are extreme?

Sherice:

Yeah, I mean, it all starts kind of, I guess, with the kind of story I’m putting the characters in. I’m kind of, like I said before, I’m kind of looking for the characters who would be the worst person to go through a situation. And I’m kind of thinking… because that’s the most fun, isn’t it…. It’s kind of giving them all the conflict and giving them lots of room to grow, because, you know, if you put them in the position of being the worst person to deal with the situation, they have to grow and evolve. And I think that growth and character arc is really what people kind of like with my work.

But yeah, in terms of starting from the ground up, I guess I start with kind of building a profile for my characters. I’ve got a nice character sheet and I’ll start filling that in with different details about their sort of their past, things they like, things they don’t like. And sometimes I’ll write little scenes aren’t related to the script and just sort of put them in it and kind of see how they would respond. So I’m very much in the mind of the character. So going back just to Killing For a Living, I put the characters into a different scenario where they’ve missed a flight and we’re just seeing how they kind of respond to the scenario. It’s quite fun because they’ve all got different reactions even though they’re quite hot-headed characters, like they’ve all got their own, you know, different levels and thresholds for that. They all have different nuances on that. So it’s not like, oh, they get angry. It’s like, how would they get angry? How would they start trying to play the system differently to get what they want? So, they’ve all got their own ways of doing things. And I think just taking them out of the story you’re writing, going, what would this character do if this happened?… can really help you kind of go, oh, yeah, I know, I know how this character is going to behave. And I think when you really know that, that’s when you’re onto a good character because they start taking on a life of their own and you kind of go, oh, imagine if there’s something on a pirate ship and they’ve been, you know, taken over by aliens or something like that, something extreme and you can picture what they would do. That’s really when you’re going, yes, this character is, you know, a bit more fully formed, perhaps ready for the story, and then you can go back and go, right, yeah, I know how they’ll behave, so I kind of have those steps.

Danielle:

That is such good advice and I have to admit I’ve fought it for so long. I think it’s thinking when you’ve just got what seems like a short pocket of writing time, kind of mentality being like… I have to make this count, I have to like just knock off the scenes that are in my outline. But as you say, it’s so incredibly helpful to put those characters in other situations and to have that play and know that it does feed back in. But I resisted it for far too long. So I think that’s amazing advice and I wish I could have given that to my younger self. Perfect.

So I’d love to ask you as well with the pilot process. How are you managing that process overall? And is there anything that you’re learning as you go that feels new to you about how it’s being managed? Because there may be some people listening who… that’s the kind of dream is to win the prize. And then it’s like, but what happens next?

Sherice:

Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s been interesting since winning because I found… I did have an agent before I won the battle competition, but people still weren’t really returning my calls and my agent wasn’t getting a huge amount of traction… but after I won, on the back of the Rockliffe competition, suddenly people were like… oh, let’s go for coffee. And I was like, oh, great, fantastic. Yeah, let’s go for coffee.

So that’s been really, really great, really. I mean, just having the opportunity to kind of meet more producers, meet with different production companies, and just kind of sort of putting faces to names. It’s been really, really helpful. But it’s a slow process. I will say that. It took a long time for, you know, people to kind of respond to the script on, you know, different levels, whether they were going to move forward or not move forward. I’m quite lucky that I found a small indie production company who really liked the script and decided to go with optioning It. They’re looking at places they can take it to, in terms of commissioners, different channels. Again, it’s a slow process, so I’m still waiting to see if anything comes of it. It may or may not become a TV show or a series, but yes there’s a lot of waiting. I would say one of the things that I’ve had to learn to do is, to just keep writing other stuff while I wait. So it’s not like going, okay, here’s the script, this is it. It’s won this competition, it’s going to be on TV maybe and you know, you can’t go right there, all eggs in one basket. You can’t really do that as a writer. You really have to kind of go, okay, so that’s ticking along. What’s the next thing? And you know, trying to get more stuff to my agent, trying to get more stuff written. It’s a constant process really. And it’s like having homework. You’ve always got homework to do as a writer. So yeah, you never really stop. You have to keep going and keep making stuff because you never know when it’s going to land even if you think you’re kind of, you know moments away from getting that golden ticket you might not be , so you really have to kind of keep lots of things going, keep the wheels spinning. Yeah, be very patient.

Danielle:

Yes, that must be hard sometimes, but I think it’s really good advice. And I’d love to ask you, I know more about the agent manager system in the US than I do for how it works in the UK, just because of listening to podcasts and having access to resources online. Having an agent in the UK…I’m assuming your agent’s in the UK?…how collaborative or not is that process? Or is it more about setting up the meetings? What’s it like?

Sherice:

It’s pretty collaborative, actually. I’ve been really happy with my agent. So yeah, it’s very collaborative. I will send him scripts and then he’ll give me notes, which is really helpful just to get someone else’s opinion on things. Before I send him stuff, I do send it out to other people as well. So I’ve got sort of like a range of notes. When it comes to notes, I would say send it to more than one person because everyone’s view is very subjective. And some people might go… Oh, I really love this. And then some people might hate that. So I think if you get sort of like that same note a few different time again, that’s when you go okay there is something in this that they’re saying needs to change or isn’t working and I just think that’s super helpful. So yeah having him to just sort of look at my stuff and kind of go… oh I like this about this but I’m not sure about that… kind of just you know helps inform my writing. It also helps me make decisions on whether or not to stick to my guns or if I’m going okay actually I do need to change this. So yes it’s really been a great collaboration between us. He’s not got a huge amount of clients which I think is really helpful, because then I’m not just a number in his little book. So I think choosing an agent wisely is also worth thinking about because, you know, say you win the next big competition, you could be getting offers from everywhere. I would say really research the people who you want to work with, kind of look at who they’re already working with. Do they have people in your space already? Do they have the right connections for you? Because that’s just really going to help in the long run. I you kind of go, okay, this person does comedy already this is useful for me because then I can kind of you know latch on to those other you know connections they’ve got, whereas if it’s somebody who does drama and you don’t do drama and you’re kind of in a you know a sea of people, you’re just going to kind of get moved down the chain eventually, they won’t find anything for you. So yeah, do your research figure out if you’re a good fit for them as well. It’s not just about being a good fit for your agent, it works both ways. It’s a two way street so I think you’ve got to have a good rapport and don’t just jump on the first person who’s going to say, yes I’ll be your agent because you’ve got to make sure it’s right for you.

Danielle:

Again, really good advice. It must be so hard to do when… kind of that’s the goal, you want that agent. But it’s having that level headed approach that sounds absolutely vital. As you say, it’s a long game, so very good advice.

And I would love to know, in terms of, when you’re getting that feedback, as you say, get it from more than one person…but is there anything that when you kind of wind back a little bit in your career, that you realised was something that you really needed to work on, in your craft. For me, particularly, it’s setting. That’s the one point I need to keep strengthening. Was there any particular area of your craft, that from feedback or just from yourself, that you knew you needed  to tackle? And if so, how did you go about it? Whether that’s character or dialogue or setting or structure? I’d just love to know.

Sherice:

Yeah, no, that’s a really good question. Yeah, I would say it’s probably… tightening up plots really. I think sometimes I can get maybe a little bit too carried away with characters and I’ll have a plan, then suddenly my character may derail the plan and they’ll go somewhere completely different. So I had that with a feature script that I was writing. I started off with a good solid plan, following the structure and then suddenly my character went off in a complete different direction I was like hmm. I don’t know if that’s the right way or if I should kind of try and pull them back to the outline So kind of knowing when to sort of trust whether you should follow the direction It feels like your character is trying to pull into, or whether you really need to sort of bring it back and keep a bit more focus on the structure can be quite an interesting battle to have. I haven’t quite sussed that one out yet because sometimes you know you have to kind of try it both ways to figure out which is the right method and the right way to get there. It’s a trial and error. Eventually you’ll find the thing that works because you know you’ll kind of keep going back to it. My thing is rewriting as the cliche goes so yeah keep trying it out. I’ve done a few things where it’s really not working and I’ve got a little bit stuck into it and I’m like right I’ve just got to scrap it and I’ve had to scrap I think a whole script once just because I just completely changed direction. I was like this is not working at all so it’s pretty much like a ground zero rewrite but that’s okay you know this it happens sometimes the scripts aren’t quite functioning the way you want them to and it’s fine to just take a step back and go okay it’s not working but there’s elements from this that you can take into a new draft whether it’s whole scenes or whether it’s just you know knowing what doesn’t work. Don’t beat yourself up over it, it does happen to everyone.

When you hit draft 50 maybe you’re on to the right thing, so you’ve got to keep going.

Danielle:

Perfect, I love that. And when you’re within a writing session, I don’t know how you organise your writing time….a particular time of day, a certain amount of hours, or whether you’re flexible about it…. if you are in a writing session and you do find yourself getting really stuck, what do you do to deal with that. Do you push on through? Do you brainstorm? What are your top tips for a day when you’re really stuck?

Sherice:

Tips for days when you’re really stuck…. We all have them. I think, you know, sometimes it’s easy to say… take a break and walk away, but sometimes you’ve got a deadline and you’re like, oh crap, I need to get this done like super-fast. So I think trying to not get to the point where you’ve got that deadline looming is really helpful. So, try to structure time in a way that, you know, you’re not at the end of the time and you’re like, oh no…. You know, so you’re not racing to this end point. But I think, you know, take the time you need, because writing is again you know, patience. Because it’s not it’s not all up in your head straight away. It doesn’t come to the page so quickly, you know what I mean. Words don’t always come freely… like these words I’m saying now. So you have to give yourself the time you need to you know walk away from the laptop, go for a walk, forget about it. The best ideas I have tend to be in the shower or when I’m brushing my teeth when I haven’t got a pen handy but you know those can be some of the best times to get those ideas is when you’re not thinking about it. about it.

So, you know, like I said with the script that won the BAFTA competition, it wasn’t something I planned to write, it just sort of came out of a session where I was struggling on something else and went, you know what, I’ve forgotten the joy of writing, so I’m just going to write something else and it doesn’t need to be anything, it can just be for me. And sometimes that can be your best work because that is, you know, it comes from a place where you’ve got the passion, you’ve got the love and I think if you’re not feeling that passion and love, you need to, you know, figure out how to get back to that place and get there by any means necessary.

Danielle:

That’s wonderful. I’m also going to write down in capital letters on a post-it and stick it to my laptop, PATIENCE, because I think that’s something that I lack. And again, like you say, if… I’m working on novels myself… so it’s a quality that I need to cultivate more of. So I’m definitely going to write it down on a post-it and think of you next time I’m stuck in a scene. Amazing. Thank you so much.

You’ve given us so much practical advice… in the last little section of the podcast, I’d love to just zoom out to the broader landscape of comedy and ask what you’re enjoying currently in shows that you’re watching or content that you’re consuming that’s within the comedy world. What’s fun for you?

Sherice:

Yeah, so I’ve just finished watching Our Flag Means Death which has been a really fun comedy. I think it’s on the BBC, if I remember it is, but yeah it’s got Taika Waititi in it and he’s one of my favourite directors although he’s more, I think he’s just an actor in this…not just an actor. It’s still really fun. It’s a great little series. about pirates because what’s not to like about pirates? And what else am I watching? I’ve just got the DVD of Swiss Army Man so I’m going to watch that later because I’m really loving what the Daniels are doing at the moment. I loved Everything Everywhere All At Once. If you haven’t seen that go and watch it immediately because it’s brilliant. So yeah I’m just checking out Swiss Army Man to see what that looks like. I’ve heard lots of mixed things but I’m sure it’s going to be a wild ride so yeah.

Danielle:

Amazing yeah I was thinking about the Daniels when you were talking about commercials and directing commercials. I heard them interviewed on the Scriptnotes podcast and I didn’t realize how much of their background was making commercials and music videos, they also made lots of music videos. I thought that makes total sense in terms of the energy that they’re bringing to it and how they’re putting it together and they also talked about having to work very quickly and with lots of improvisation on the day which I wouldn’t have known from the structure of it. It sounds like they brought all those skills to making Everything Everywhere All At Once. So I love that. Amazing. I’m writing down those recommendations and they’re going on my list. Thank you.

And I would love to wrap up with advice. Any advice that you’ve been given as a comedy writer, director, creator that you found helpful or has stuck with you?

Sherice:

Yeah, so I guess the one piece of advice that’s really stuck with me is the 10,000 hour rule. You may or may not have heard of it, but basically they say if you spend 10,000 hours doing anything, you will become a master of said thing. So, you know, every time I’m writing, I’m thinking, this is another hour, I’m putting into this, you know, hopefully at some point I’ll become a master. I’m sure I’ve still got 9,900 hours or something to go, but I think, you know, the practice makes perfect rule isn’t it? You keep practicing and every bit of writing or directing you get to do is you know more practice so you’re always going to constantly be improving. Keep you know taking those steps forward and yeah just don’t give up.

Danielle:

I actually feel like that’s a really reassuring way to think of it. I think sometimes I can be like… right, I’ve got this hour and in this hour, I must accomplish this from my outline and I must finish this scene in this way. And actually to just think of it more as practice, and like you say the trial and error, and have patience around it. I love that. You’ve given so much good advice. I’m going to be remembering you all through the rest of this week when I’m on my laptop opening up Scrivener.

Before we finish, where can we point people to who want to find out more about you or your work, and of course I will put these links in the show notes too.

Sherice:

Yeah sure, so you can go to my website which is www.shericegriffiths.com and you can always follow me on Twitter. I’m just checking what my Twitter handle is now so I can just make sure it’s correct. Yes, so it’s @Sherice_G or on my website.

Danielle:

Perfect. And like I say, I’ll put those links in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time today and for giving us such a great insight behind the scenes and what it’s like in your process. Thank you so much. I’ve learned a lot.

Sherice:

Thank you so much.